Go out and get what you deserve from the industry

10 December 2009 | By Antony Oliver

A couple of weeks ago I wrote about the need to invest in our graduates. To be honest I have been flattered and shocked by the scale of responses posted online at nce.co.uk.

If you haven’t already done so, please have a look yourself. Personally I was quite amazed at the level of (anonymous) venom and sheer disgruntlement that is on display.

I say shocked because, as you will see from our Graduate Awards feature, there are some seriously talented people young people entering the profession.

And behind this new young talent stands a raft of committed employers. They understand that investing in talent is critical and no longer something to be debated.

It was a point made well by Arup director Kate Hall at the House of Commons reception to launch EngineeringUK last week. She explained that her career started in the early 1990s recession when so many others firms were cutting their graduate recruitment. The result is the missing generation of 40-something engineers.

“As you will see from our Graduate Awards feature, there are some seriously talented people young people entering the profession.”

While every firm will have to make tough decisions about staffing levels and rewards, few will now be prepared to entertain the prospect of not investing in young engineers. Easy to say and a quick look at the web will demonstrate that not everyone in the industry necessarily agrees.

While the web is a great place to exorcise and vent all manner of pent up frustration and anger, the scale of feeling suggests that there are clearly more than a few engineers out there who are far from happy with their career choice. As one reader pointed out in a letter, no one ever enters a career in civil engineering to get rich quick. Some of course do, but most don’t.

And it is probably not a civil engineering specific issue. There are probably similar numbers of angry lawyers, accountants and doctors looking across at their peers’ careers and salaries with envy and disgust.

There are probably also quite a few public servants feeling a bit miffed that their rewards haven’t kept pace with the recent absurd public sector pay inflation. Then there are the bankers…

“If you think that you are worth more than you are being paid then go to the market and test it.”

But this latter example is perhaps where all the anonymous disgruntled civil engineers should learn from. Rather than rant and rave why not do as the bankers threaten and just vote with your feet.

It’s simple, if your employer isn’t investing in your career then find one who will. If you think that you are worth more than you are being paid then go to the market and test it.

Recession or not, firms are always interesting in employing and keeping the best talent. If that’s you then you have no problem. But if not then perhaps now is the moment to keep your head down − just enjoy reading about great civil engineering careers and great civil engineering companies in this week’s bumper festive issue.

Happy Christmas! See you on 7 January.

Antony Oliver is NCE’s editor

Readers' comments (133)

Anonymous | 10-Dec-2009 5:15 pm
Antony thank you for acknowledging posts from other articles in regards to graduates employments concerns.

As a young professional often I feel that my voice is never heard nor deemed to matter, but if engineer employers acknowledge what we are saying to them (as you have) and do something about it. I feel the Civil engineering industry in the UK can have a strong future.

Whilst I applaud this article, I do disagree with the section relating to "if your employer isn’t investing in your career then find one who will". I dont know anyone whose gutsy enough to do so, especially as employers at the moment appear to live by the policy last-in first-out (this happened to me).

Have you ever thought about a NCE Forum where members can voice there concern. Of course making sure this didnt just turn into a facility for rants. It would certainly bridge a ever-present gap between the ICE and many of its members.
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Anonymous | 11-Dec-2009 9:58 am
This is the editor (and possibly ICE) telling us engineers to stop expecting ICE to do anything about our pathetic pays.

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Anonymous | 11-Dec-2009 10:35 am
"Rather than rant and rave why not do as the bankers threaten and just vote with your feet."

Bankers 'vote with their feet' by switching to banks that pay better from banks that don't pay as well.

What can you do when the salaries in the entire industry are depressed? Switch from one low-pay civil engineering job to another low-pay civil engineering job?

This is like the Institution of Civil Engineers asking civil engineers to leave the industry.
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Anonymous | 11-Dec-2009 11:39 am
It is good to see that the Editor does appear to actually read the comments.

However, his recent article does beg the question: What, exactly, does the ICE do for its Members?
They paid £10.6 million in staff costs in 2008 - what were they doing (apart from the commercial arm of TT) to further the interests of its Members?
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Anonymous | 11-Dec-2009 1:00 pm
its easy for employers to talk about retention and training etc. It appears that this however is not happening from the comments. Talk as they say is cheap.

Good to see the editor respond though.
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Anonymous | 11-Dec-2009 1:59 pm
Anthony Oliver is obviously far removed from the realities of trying to raise a family on a graduate wage. The tone of his piece suggests that we should just stop whinging and get on with it. As noted by the other posters the whole industry is suppressing the wages of engineers. So, to follow his advice and 'vote with our feet' would mean moving industries for a living wage. It is worth noting that in one recent year of Cambridge University students graduating in civil engineering, not one of them went into the industry. They all went to work in the city. So much for keeping the best talent in the industry.

The problem is that consultancy fees are based on an absurdly low percentage of the overall project cost. There needs to be an agreement across the industry on minimum levels of fees and the increases passed on directly to the engineers.

Until this happens, I will have to go on cycling to work each morning following the bus with an advert recruiting drivers, with the advert noting a salary in excess of mine.

PS - Anthony, I doubt very much there are any doctors, lawyers or accountants looking over at our salaries enviously.
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Anonymous | 12-Dec-2009 12:47 pm
"Personally I was quite amazed at the level of (anonymous) venom and sheer disgruntlement that is on display."

Sir,

If you read the comments passed on your articles closely, you will find that the only commentators wo do identify themselves are students, the retired, company directors or self-employed consultants.

From the experience of a colleague, even making the most blandly agreeable statement could find you before HR for reflecting badly on the company. To expect any engineer to identify themselves could be setting them up for professional suicide. Particularly in the current economic climate, where any excuse for disciplinary action and subsequent dismissal seems justified. Have you not seen the litany of disclaimers passing for signatures on industry emails these days?

THAT is the state this industry finds itself in. Tired of being under appreciated and scared of what tomorrow may bring (see Aecom, Atkins Water, etc., etc.).
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Anonymous | 12-Dec-2009 5:26 pm
Still blinded by optimism I am currently taking a year out from the industry studying an MSc in engineering to accompany my MEng in the hope that I'll find a better paid, more rewarding job at the end of it. Having read all of the above, I probably shouldn't hold my breath, and instead should consider spending my time dating well paid bankers as they clearly have the right idea.
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Anonymous | 13-Dec-2009 9:33 am
Anthony,

Firstly thank you for recognising the growing level of disillusionment in the industry.

That said, I have to disagree with the sentiments expressed above;
"behind this new young talent stands a raft of committed employers. They understand that investing in talent is critical"

Actually, in my experience (and that of peers in other companies) employers have no commitment to graduates - they have been the first ones out the door. The lucky few who remain have been told that there is no training budget for their personal development due to the 'tough times'. Coupled with the ongoing pay freezes, perhaps I should vote with my feet - but where am I supposed to run to!?

Most young professionals who still have a job are too scared to demand a pay rise for fear of being next under the axe. Given that there is a surplus of engineers currently out of work and frantically seeking new employment (and good luck to all of them) this is further serving to lower salaries as people will accept lower rates simply to get a job - and who can blame them!?

Finally, asking engineers to seek inspiration from bankers is quite frankly insulting. Perhaps if we all run massively over budget on all our jobs then the government will step in and bail us out - then we can all look forward to 5-figure bonuses as a reward?
No, didnt think so.
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Anonymous | 13-Dec-2009 8:48 pm
out of touch and out of reality I'm afraid. I have worked for 4 major players in the industry, only the latest put any effort into my professional development. Vote with your feet and test the market? The market is deflated if not dead. I'm a chartered engineer currently being paid the same as a graduates straight out of college but where can I go as an alternative? The fact is that there is no incentive to have technical expertise in this industry because the only was to a decent salary is in manangement, therefore everyone rushes up the management chain within firstly aquiring the technical knowledge and skills are getting lost. I'm afraid the industry is slowly killing itself.
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Anonymous | 14-Dec-2009 10:47 am
Have to agree with the above comment - working for one of the 'major' players, it is clear that the only way to advance and get a relatively decent salary is by becoming a Manager and not an Engineer - i.e something you don't actually need a engineering degree to do.

You are encouraged into project management as early as possible, and thus do not get the breadth of technical experience which, in my opinion, is needed to be able to manage a project effectively - especially when mistakes happen.

It is ironic that when these mistakes do occur, it is the highly paid managers in charge who disapear and leave it to the low paid engineer to fix - who then get none of the credit for saving the company from the fire.

Killing itself? It's been on life support for quite a while - how long before it is switched off?
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Anonymous | 14-Dec-2009 12:19 pm
"And behind this new young talent stands a raft of committed employers. They understand that investing in talent is critical and no longer something to be debated."

Antony, I'm sorry but that is nonsense.

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Anonymous | 14-Dec-2009 1:35 pm
I agree with the above comments re management/technical knowledge. Looking up the food chain and the high-level posts are filled with people who lack engineering knowledge and are heavily rewarded for it!

It does make me laugh though - can also relate to the stories of when things go wrong there's a wildebeast-style stampeed. 30 seconds later and there's not a manager in site and the poor senior engineer who's been neglected in the corner during the good times is suddenly expected to sort things out. And when he does so with minimal fuss the room is magically refilled with back-slapping corporate idiots claiming "good job team, good job. Look after the company and they'll reward me.....sorry, you....Freudian slip."

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Anonymous | 14-Dec-2009 1:49 pm
I've got to agree with the above poster. Anthony you seem to have completely disregarded all of the comments in the previous articles relating to this topic. How can you be quoted as saying:

"And behind this new young talent stands a raft of committed employers. They understand that investing in talent is critical and no longer something to be debated."

In your previous article on the 10th of June you voiced your opinions about how young Engineers should work for free given the situation (http://www.nce.co.uk/expert-opinion/antony-oliver/whatever-you-do-dont-stop-recruiting-young-engineers/5203243.article).

Your article goes on to advise Employers how to handle the situation and not do as they did last time by removing graduates. If you had taken into account the news from around the industry (and your site) between June and now you would have realised the future for grads is not as shiny as you have painted it in this current article.

“Recession or not, firms are always interesting in employing and keeping the best talent. If that’s you then you have no problem. But if not then perhaps now is the moment to keep your head down - just enjoy reading about great civil engineering careers and great civil engineering companies in this week’s bumper festive issue.” – Are you a blithering idiot or do you have no respect for the people who read the NCE magazine?

Anthony you are very obviously out of touch with the reality of the world of Engineering. How you can go about with these claims whilst assumedly your job as NCE editor is paid for by the Civil Engineers in the UK is beyond me.

It is quite sad that we “trick” more youngsters into joining the industry when they would be far better off elsewhere. The funding ICE puts towards promoting Engineering in schools should go elsewhere (not to mention the large chunk of this years fund which has gone to refurbishing the George Street HQ) could be much better spent elsewhere. When you consider that that grade requirements for a Masters degree in Engineering are identical to that of doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc the youngsters should be pointed in that direction. Impeccable school grades, and a 4/5 year course leading into this shambolic industry? How can anyone promoting Engineering not feel guilty every time they promote this industry we work in.
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Anonymous | 14-Dec-2009 3:06 pm
Anthony Oliver's comments seem (like the criticisms often levied at the ICE) to show more sensitivity to employers from whom EMAP receives significant funding thru advertising, etc. than to the professional engineers commenting here, albeit I assume we provide funding too via our subscriptions (?).

We have every right to feel aggrieved when our industry has been decimated as a consequence of a very destructive banker fuelled credit crunch and we, unlike them, have not earned good money in the good times to tide us over or retire to the Caribbean, Monaco, or become a teacher with £4 million banked.

Moreover, as an engineer I can only feel aghast at our lack of leadership when I look at how bank industry leaders have manoeuvered Govt ("the Goldman Sachs Method") to get the rest of us to bail them out whilst continuing to pay very high salaries whilst our engineering industry leaders and lobbyists are incapable of even preventing Govt allowing competitive bidding and pricing to continue that not only leads to the low salaries but destroys much of our capability as technical service providers.

No wonder US predators are circling UK Engineering plc as we are currently collectively lying like tortoises with feet in the air.
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Anonymous | 14-Dec-2009 3:29 pm
Engineers need to get together and make the market move in their favour, plus give up their reliance on recruiters.

Has anyone seen this site?

www.engineeryourcareer.com

Sounds like a good idea to me!
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Anonymous | 15-Dec-2009 9:49 am
After reading Anthony Oliver’s comments which I have been reading for over 5 years I have now been totally convinced that the ICE is currently a waste of my time and my hard earned money.

I have been working as an engineer in the UK for about 4 years and prior to that completed an MSc in Civil Engineering also in the UK. I have worked as a trainee engineer in my home country and was given more respect than I am currently been given in this country as an experienced engineer. I have worked for the 3 biggest players in the field and can confirm with all past comments made by my must esteemed colleagues the “rant” is the same. We are not paid well enough for the responsibility we take on even as junior engineers. The ICE to me do not have a common goal and just go along with what’s in vogue with the society and the politicians and it rather pains me to see so many gifted engineers who have a passion for the job due to financial obligations leave the industry or leave the country for greener pastures. This also puts a lot of burden to engineers’ family life as high percentage of engineer are either divorced or don’t have a good family relationship.

Not to digress way off topic the idea that Mr Anthony Oliver is putting forward that “if your employer isn’t investing in your career then find one who will. If you think that you are worth more than you are being paid then go to the market and test it” shows how totally out of torch he is with what is really happening in the industry, I for one would like to know how much he gets paid writing articles on the NCE magazine and if he is earning more than £50,000.00/annum, as a current (not for long) ICE fee paying member I would suggest we put his salary to vote to see if he is “worth it”. Not just him the whole ICE pay structure should come into scrutiny by us members since we fund it.

Referring to the statement made again by Mr Anthony Oliver “Rather than rant and rave why not do as the bankers threaten and just vote with your feet” as educated as he seems to be does he not understand the basic economic principle of demand and supply, were supply exceeds demand prices or salaries go down. So the idea of voting with your feet is simply not possible as you would probable be earning more on your current meager salary than you would moving else where.

I have made up my mind to cancel my ICE subscription as it is not value for money. There is no incentive to get chartered. In other industries when you get chartered there is a minimum bar payment structure but for us “engineers” that does not exist.

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Anonymous | 15-Dec-2009 10:35 am
15-Dec-2009 9:49 am

'I for one would like to know how much he gets paid writing articles on the NCE magazine and if he is earning more than £50,000.00/annum, as a current (not for long) ICE fee paying member I would suggest we put his salary to vote to see if he is “worth it”. Not just him the whole ICE pay structure should come into scrutiny by us members since we fund it.'

Good idea. But no doubt Mr Oliver and NCE/ICE will be very happy to just ignore your (and others') comments and get on with collecting our ever-hiking membership fees to serve the interests of the employers. This will go on until we all decide we can't take this anymore and leave the industry and stop paying these people.

There's no reason for Mr Oliver to start worrying though. Their lobbyists will still keep bugging the politicians and tricking young and bright people into the industry to make sure there's constant supply of cheap labour.
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Anonymous | 15-Dec-2009 12:02 pm
Nice idea but I'm fairly confident that I'm correct in saying that NCE isn't actually owned by ICE anymore... Anthony therefore receives the going rate for an Editor and I'm sure if he felt he didn't, he would test the market himself.

For all of you that gripe and moan about your salary and poor career progression, did you ever bother to test the market a few years ago when employers were having to recruit from overseas?! You control your own career, if you chose to do nothing when times were 'good' you're in no position to complain about your Ts&Cs now that times are harder.
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Anonymous | 15-Dec-2009 12:23 pm
Isn't it interesting that everyone's stock response to an unhappy engineer is to change company? Especially at the moment when most consultants seem to have recruitment bans, surely the best thing to do is to work within your company to try and improve the situation?

So - rather than follow the risky advice of Athony, if you're a grad and unhappy - request a transfer to a different team. Let your director know you are unhappy and the reasons. You may just be surprised by the reaction you get!
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